Enhancing Education with Interactive and Immersive Experiences

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Mr. Jethro Jones: Welcome
to a Vision for Learning.

I'm excited to have on the
program today, Matt Choi, who's

the founder of Career View xr.

Matt, welcome to a Vision for Learning.

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: Hey, thanks Jeff.

I appreciate being here.

Mr. Jethro Jones: Yeah.

So, first, why don't you tell us
what people should look forward

to from our conversation today?

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: I think some
exciting speculation about what's

coming in the world of learning.

Bridging the gap between the digital
world and the real world, and creating

learning immersive learning spaces
that have never been possible before.


Mr. Jethro Jones: And you or someone
who would know, tell us about what

Career View XR is and and why you're
someone who knows about this space.

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: Yeah.

So Career Vxr is we're an ed tech product.

It is a library of immersive field
trip and job shadow experiences that

are all filmed in the real world.

And we use 360 degree media filming.

Real people performing real jobs in
real environments to bring job sites

into the classroom through standard
devices like desktop, tablet, mobile, but

also through virtual reality headsets.

And hopefully soon augmented reality
headsets like the Apple Vision Pro.

Mr. Jethro Jones: Yeah.

So I've I've known you for a while
now and you've been on my other

podcast, Transformative Principle,
and one of the things that I really

appreciated about our conversation
today is where we kind of rift on this

idea of creating a lab for anything.

Wherever you are.

And so I think that idea of being
able to bring whatever you want

to you is really powerful and it's
gonna take a lot of coordination

and collaboration between people to
make those kinds of things happen.

And it's really exciting what people
are gonna come up with over time.

So, I'll get to my interview
with Matt here in just a moment.

Jethro Jones: Matt, talk to us
about how you see the Apple Vision

Pro changing the landscape that
you've been in for a while now.

Matthew Chaussee: honestly I think.

Apple Vision Pro and the inevitable chain
of devices that are gonna be developed

to mirror it are gonna, they're gonna
change the landscape for how we engage

with computers, how we engage with digital
media just as much as the iPhone did.

It's gonna take some time,
I think for that to happen.

But this era we're entering of spatial
computing where you, when you have.

Apple Vision Pro.

You don't need a screen, right?

It your screen can be a virtual one.

You can have as many of them as you want.

You can create a movie theater in your
living room and tune out everything

else that's around you visually.

For as long as you want to.

I mean, it's just it is, it's hard
to speculate on what it will become.

Because a lot of folks, I bet even a lot
of folks at Apple don't even know what

direction our developer's gonna take it.

What do, what are the things that
users are gonna come up with?

It's gonna be a revolution in
how we engage with digital media.


Jethro Jones: I feel the same way
and I feel like, right now the

price is out of reach for a lot of
people, certainly for schools for

every kid to have one, of course.

But like, that may not be the point.

It may be an opportunity like when
you do your stuff with career View

xr, like not every single kid has
a device in that situation, right?

It's one at a time or a couple
at a time and that's what.

What makes it valuable is
that individualized attention.

Did I get something wrong there?

Matthew Chaussee: No I think
there's definitely value in

that individualized piece of it.

But there, I.

I think that with immersive media, the
delivery mechanism really depends on the

outcomes that, that you're looking for.

I mean, a platform like Career View
XR can be viewed on standard devices,

you know, non, non vr, non AR devices.

It can also be viewed in immersive
rooms like immersive me immersive

realities, walk-in rooms that
where you can engage in a space.

But I think that the real differentiator
was something like Apple Vision.

Pro is, yes, it is a one-to-one device,
but it's more than just a viewer.

It is, it gives you an opportunity to
interact with objects in your space.

It's mixed reality.

It's true mixed reality where the objects
are within your space and it's kind of a

convergence of the virtual world and your
real world and that's something that just.

You know, Microsoft had the
HoloLens years ago, HoloLens two.

They've kind of, pulled back on their
work there and what Apple's doing

with Apple Vision Pro is okay, it
feels like light years ahead of where

it had been even just a year ago.

And I haven't even tried the thing yet.

I've only seen the video that they
put together, but the enhanced field

of view all of those things it just.

I get the sense that this is going
to, this is gonna build the same

sort of just passionate follower
that's that the iPhone did.

Jethro Jones: So you've been in this space
with Career View XR for a while, so why

do you feel like this is so different
than like Medi Quest or whatever other

things have been out there already?

Matthew Chaussee: It's important to
make a distinction between virtual

reality and augmented or mixed reality.

The initial versions of, you know, vibes,
headsets, meta Quest headsets, those were

all virtual reality where you are looking
at a screen that is basically making

you feel like you're someplace else.

Now MedQuest three has really good pass
through and there, and I believe Vi

Vision Pro has passed through as well.

And those devices they're great.


Able to kind of see what's in
your world and en engage with

digital objects in your world.

I think the biggest difference
is they have their own they

have their own ecosystem.

They have their own devices, but Apple
Vision Pro it is the Apple Store.

All of your apps are accessible.

The ones you already know aren't, can
now be consumed in this immersive way.

And I think that's the.

Biggest differentiator right now is it's
not a separate marketplace or ecosystem.

It's an enhancement to Apple's
already really strong ecosystem.

Jethro Jones: That idea is really powerful
and I want to stay there for just a moment

because one of the things that I've we've
been hearing about in the news recently

is that certain apps like YouTube and
Netflix are not going to have a Vision

Pro compatible app on launch date.

You can still use it in.

Safari and so you can
still access these things.

But then there are other apps like the
cooking app that I just love, where the

developer is actively preparing a release
for day one of the thing, the app's called

Crouton and just looking at his stuff on
threads, I can see what he's doing and how

cool it's going to be to experience that.

And like he even showed
a quick little demo of.

Walking through the steps of creating
your meal in your kitchen and saying

like, okay here's my counter and
here's how big of a pan I need.

What does that look like in my
actual space, and how much is

this actually going to make?

Like, I don't know how far down that
road he's gone 'cause he didn't show

that or anything, but just that idea of.

Like not even having the Vision Pro, let
me just say this app has helped me be be a

better cook because of how it's designed.

That's not an insignificant thing,
you know, and what this guy is

dreaming up for, how it's gonna
interact with the Vision Pro, I

think is gonna be really amazing.

I can't wait to see what that's
like and what that feels like

and what the experience is.

Matthew Chaussee: It absolutely and
as you know, AI tools get more and

more developed and we've got 3D 3D
animations and models that's, that

are powered by AI technologies.

Imagine now having a digital version of
him who's standing in your space and is

able to observe and help correct you as
you might be making, not measuring things

appropriately or using the wrong utensil.

I mean, there's also, it's not there
yet, but that is where it, it will

get, I mean, we've all, we've seen
the movies about, you know, the robot

helper that's in your space that does
the laundry for you, that sort of thing.

And, you know, may maybe we'll
get there too, but that's a

big piece of hardware, right?

Imagine now having something
like that, but it's all digital

and it's just presented to you.

In an individualized way for the
particular task that, that you're doing?

I don't think we're that far off.

From those sorts of things.

Jethro Jones: Okay, so get this.

One of my weaknesses that
I really struggle with is

fixing anything in my house.

Like any mechanical
thing I just suck at it.

It's incredibly, emasculating,
is that the word?

Where it makes me feel like I'm
not a man because I can't do it.

Like it's just, Matt, lemme
tell you, it is tough.

So our washing machine broke.

I ordered a part that I
thought was gonna fix it.

'cause I consulted with somebody and
they're like, this is the part you need.

I ordered it, it came, it was totally
different from the part that, it was

replacing, or that I thought it was
replacing, and I was just so frustrated

that I just said, okay, we're just gonna
go buy a new washing machine, 500 bucks.

Like it's worth it to not
have to deal with this.

We've already been without a washing
machine for a week and a half now, for me

personally, that's just my own weakness.


But then I was thinking like, what if.

I put this headset on and I call this
guy on Zoom and I say, you look at what

I'm looking at and let's walk through
this process together, and you tell

me what to do and where to go and how
to like do these different things.

How incredibly powerful would that be?

To like we, because this is all
going back to that idea of the

enhancement of the current offerings.

Because Zoom, like I can have a Zoom
call and point out what I'm doing.

And what you don't get
is you don't get depth.

It's all flat.

And with this, I imagine if I could,
if I can point the cameras out and see

what the person can see, what I see,
instead of just seeing the superimposed

face that Apple's gonna create.

If they can see what I can see,
that would be incredibly powerful

to say, no, go two inches back.

That's the screw that you need to unscrew.

That's the part.

And then being able to like look at that
part and doing a search like, like you

said with AI that says, okay, this is
the part I see as we're doing this, I

saw the model number for your washer.

I see the part and I can go
through this database and find

that specific part and be able to.

Show you exactly what you need.

Then pull up a video saying, here's
how you replace this thing on your

specific model with your specific part.

Like, oh my gosh, Matt, that's just mind
blowing to think I might able be, might

be able to repair things in my own home.

Matthew Chaussee: And so take
that even a step further, right?

And watching, yeah, watching a video.

That's one thing.

But imagine the entire process
can now be replicated in front

of your eyes in three dimensions.

What is, what?


Possible with these with spatial
computing and this emergence of these

new technologies is that bolt or that
screw that you're pulling out, you

can potentially tap on it and have
it highlighted and it'll tell you.

How do you get what size is the bolt?

When you pull it out and set
it down, where did you put it?


one of my achilles heels is, where
the hell did I put the hardware

that I pulled out of this thing?

You know, granted you would have to, I.

It would have to if you moved it when it
wasn't in your view, you would lose it.

But I bet they're working on a
solution for those types things too.

But you could watch the entire
process fold out digitally

before you even touched a tool.


And yeah, that that's coming.

It's already here in, in
an industrial setting.

There, there are workplace
training programs, I believe that

have been done through HoloLens.

That's like Boeing Mechanics, being able
to the intricate pieces and all of the.

Fittings and things that go into
aircraft maintenance, being able

to watch and observe that, I mean,
those types of things have already

been done at an enterprise level
and it's coming for consumers now


Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Matthew Chaussee: And that really,
that's Apple's strength, right?

Is taking that enterprise level, the
things that have been for corporations

and bringing it to the masses.

Jethro Jones: Yeah.

And the other thing that I was thinking
about with with how they approach

this is that they are opinionated
about how they design their solutions.

Apple is, right?

And so they say like, this
is how you need to use it and

how it needs to be accessible.

Whereas, by taking that
stance, they're saying This is

what we believe this is for.

I saw a video the other day of
Facebook's meta quest or Meta Quest

three, having a video explaining
what it could do and in a work

environment, which they haven't really.

Talked about a ton before and kind
of in an answer to what what Apple is

doing, which is pushing productivity
as a main use for this device.

And certainly there's a lot of
consumption in there as well.

But they're talking about,
you know, adding keynotes on

there and stuff like that.


I'm curious to see how that works in
practice and how, you know, the work

that I do on a day-to-day basis, will
that be easier or more difficult or what?

And so I think about those types of things
and how Apple's saying this is how we are

pitching it, and how we're viewing people
using it as productivity and what that

means for the user and what they can do.

So there are certain limitations
that exist by design.

Because they want it to
be used in a certain way.


What's your thought and take on that.

Matthew Chaussee: I I think it's gonna be
the same as we've got the iPhone camp and

you've got the Android phone camp, right?

Folks who love Apple products, they love
that it is a little more closed off and

they tell you here's how to best use it.

Whereas the Android camp is more, I
want to kind of choose my own destiny

a bit more have more latitude with
what we can do within, within, within

the devices, within the platform.

I think the same thing's gonna happen.

I mean, Vive has their XR elites that
has really great pass through, high

resolution and does very similar.

It's on an Android operating system.

We're gonna have, we're gonna
have the two camps, right?

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: Apple's
coming out with all of these.

The design is quintessentially Apple.

You look at it like, obviously
that's an Apple device, right?


Really it's gonna come down to the
user and what their preferences are.

I certainly don't think that
the Vision Pro is gonna be the

only headset people have there.

There are other great headsets out there.

MedQuest three is a good one.

The Vi XR Elite is a phenomenal
pa headset with pass through.

But it's gonna come down to user
preference ultimately, and I

think it's gonna kind of fall
into the two camps again, the

Apple camp and the Android camp.

Mr. Jethro Jones: Yeah.

So I want to go back to something
that you said before about this, you

gave the example of Boeing Mechanics
and learning how to do things.

What's your perspective on how this
will, this approach will impact

learning opportunities, not just,
you know, at a high industrial

level like Boeing mechanics,
but also on an individual basis.

We started talking about that a
little bit, but I want to go spend a

little more time chatting about that.

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: Yeah I mean,
it's unprecedented, really, right?

You can, when you have this ability
to interact with digital objects

in your space, you can create any
number of more realistic simulations.

I know we've got a, a.

Company that we've worked, victory xr
they've got a really great chemistry lab.

That's, I mean, thinking about a chemistry
lab, that's not just virtual reality,

but imagine now that VR chemistry lab is
augmented reality or mixed reality, where

you can lay out everything on your actual.

Not a virtual table in, in in a virtual
space, but you have now it, and you

know, you pour and it flows just like
it normally would and you're engaging

with it within your real world.

I think it, it provides all
kinds of opportunities to convert

real world learning spaces into
any sort of lab you might want.

I remember the magic leap years ago.

They had they were, they had all these
advertisements and they were showing

the whale jumping out of the gymnasium
floor and splashing down, and I was

like, oh my God, I want one of those.

How can I buy AEM Magic Leap?

I'm like.

No, they don't.

This, was a hype video that,
that doesn't exist yet.

Those types of that conceivably
does exist with Apple Vision Pro.

And inevitably the technologies that are
gonna follow, I don't know if there's,

there is syncing with those things yet.

I think ultimately for classroom
instruction, the ability to

sync all of those things and you
are doing an experiments and.

All the, you've got these 3D models in
front of you and everybody's vantage

point is, it's as if that object
was there in the real world, right?

That's where it's gonna become
incredibly valuable for education.

But right now, I mean, if it's a
school has one of these things,

it's a student one-off doing their
own thing as opposed to it being a

collaborative classroom activity.

And that's, it will get there.

It absolutely will get there.

There are already some really cool
VR solutions that are doing that.

And it's just a matter of time
before that progresses into the

augmented and mixed reality realm.

Mr. Jethro Jones: Here's the next
piece that I wanna talk about,

because you, all these things are
really cool ideas, but somebody has

to make those right and somebody has
to create all the models and all the

graphics and all that kind of stuff.

You've been doing this for a while
with Career xr, so you know what it

takes to create that kind of stuff.

How challenging is that and
is it going to become easier?

Like is it just, is it going to
be as easy as like filming these

things with a vision pro on and then
being able to just replicate that?

Talk about the creation aspect of
creating these types of experiences like.

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: I.

So it's a little bit of a mixed bag.

Just we, early on we kind of saw the
writing on the wall that the hardware is

gonna continue to improve and improve.

And we need to be really mindful
to not create content that is

tethered to one particular device.

And our path forward with so I'll talk
about career View XR as an example.

And then we can kind
of dive into to others.

But we create 360 degree media
that essentially is, it's not an

interactive 3D object, it's an
environment that you are within.

So, when that's being accessed
on a standard device, it's like

a home virtual tour that you can
spin the images around and you can

navigate and you can tap on hotspots.

When it's in a virtual reality space,
it's a video that you are within and

you are completely immersed in one
location, observing what a career is like.

Now we start to extend that to.

To the augmented or mixed reality arena.

The presentation of the content
itself, it's still gonna be

a video that you're within.

You're not gonna be able to talk to the
person that's in the video that we've

created, but with a mixed reality.


Matt Chaussee: Think about
the interface menu, right?

It's, it is no longer, it doesn't
have to be a flat screen that

you're choosing what you pick.

It could be a series of video orbs
that are floating around your room,

like the planets, and you decide, oh,
I wanna bring that one over to me, and

then I'm gonna put that one on and feel
what it's like to be in this career.

That there are so many it's not just.

The content itself, it's how we
engage and interact with the content.

That is the huge differentiator when we
start going into this mixed reality realm.

It is digital content in your real world.

And I think that the companies
that are gonna do really well in

that space, so the ones that are
ready to like you talked about the.

Cooking app where the developer is already
figuring out, okay, how do we use spatial?

Within this the companies that are
thinking about platform agnostic content

that transcends the various pieces of
hardware that it's accessed on those

are the ones that are gonna be doing
the best in the next 3, 5, 7, 10 years.

Mr. Jethro Jones: Yeah I think
that's a really important point

Also one thing that we can really.

Draw from as a benefit from what Apple
has done, is you've been able to, for

years with your phone, see a thing in
in augmented reality there in your space

where you can like, you know, from their
Apple store, you can buy a, get a monitor

and see what it looks like in your space.

And that's actually
been pretty nicely done.

I imagine, not a developer, but I
imagine that they've probably done a

lot of that heavy lifting for you, that
if you say this is the model and these

are the dimensions, then a lot of that,
and you have a 3D rendering of it, a

lot of the other stuff of what it looks
like here is going to be taken care of.


What do you think there?

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: Yep.

It absolutely.

A 3D model is a 3D model, and as
long as it's right in the right file

format, it doesn't matter if you're
viewing it through an AR app on a

phone, or it's loaded into a virtual
reality app and you're viewing it in

v vr versus it's being placed on a
table in front of you in augmented

reality through through a wearable
device like, like Apple Vision Pro.

Really what's changed here is the, the.

infrastructure, the idea of
digital objects being positioned

in space has been around for years.

What Apple's doing is they're creating
a new window to see into that.

Mr. Jethro Jones: Definitely an area
that I need to do more learning about.

The other thing that I'm.

That I'm thinking is when we sold our
home in Fairbanks, Alaska, they used

a Matterport camera, a 3D camera.

Is that what you use also?

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: We had looked
at using Matterport early on.

Matterport is a great solution
for residential real estate tours.

And they were actually early
stage when we got started.

We diverged from going down the real
estate routes and really focusing

more on telling immersive stories.

So for what we do, our, ours is our.

Arena is 360 video that has action
going on within the scenes, whereas

a Matterport camera is really more
about scanning a a facility a building

A home that said scanning
with a camera like Matterport,

that there's no reason that.

The models that are created through
that or through like an enhanced

LIDAR scanner or the other hardware
technologies that allow you to create a

3D space there, there's no reason that
digital media couldn't be brought into

the environments that, that we view in
a device like Apple, apple Vision Pro.

I don't know how true this is.

I, someone was telling me the
other day that it was, I the.

Notre Dame was scanned with Lidar.

There was a 3D model that was
created of it for the video game.

I think it was Assassin's Creed, maybe

that, that I am, this is like third
or fourth hand, but, so someone's

gonna have to fact check this.

Ask asterisk.

But being able to.

Have a space like that, that then
is used in the reconstruction of the

cathedral, if it's that accurate.

There are going to be things there,
there's going to be digital tourism.

I mean, being able to bring the
cathedral into your home and feel like

you're walking through it or a facet of


Put Michelangelo's painting of
the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel

on your living room ceiling.

These are the kinds of things
that are going to be possible.

And it's funny 'cause we used
to work in travel and tourism.

We did a lot of 360 degree photography
and video and travel and tourism.

And there was a fear in the industry
that, oh, if you do that, then

people aren't gonna wanna come.

And that's not the case at all.

What happens is they
get a taste of it and.

You know, that someone who's
really passionate about that

space or that experience, they're
gonna wanna go have it in person.

It's just like, you know, if you
love going to the Smithsonian,

you don't go once and you're like,
okay, I'm never gonna go again.

I've been there, done that.

You go again and again.

And I think that there's a huge
opportunity here to inspire interest in.

A world of locations that we've never
been able to get access to before.

And do that as not just an
immersive virtual reality space,

but as change your window.

I wanna look out my window
and I wanna see Mount Everest

in real time.

I mean, those things are coming.

Mr. Jethro Jones: Yeah.

And in some ways they're already here.


And which is what you were saying
before, that the Apple Vision Pro

gives a new window to look at that.

And so rather than having a live
webcam view of something, you can

literally take that live view and
make it your entire surroundings.

Which is just incredible.

Now in theory you can, I don't know
if that is possible just yet, or if

somebody's gonna have a 360 camera live
feed all the time that you can experience.

But that would be a pretty amazing
thing to see and experience and

have as part of what you're doing.

So Matt, we've just scratched
the surface really here.

And and obviously that you have
a ton more information in your

brain that you could share with us.

But I appreciate you being here and
and if somebody wants to get in touch

with you about what you're doing,
what's the best place for them to go

to, to connect with you personally?

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: Yeah, I go out
to our website, www.careerviewxr.com.

We've got a contact form.

You can connect this out there or
check out some free experiences.

Also feel free to shoot me
an email directly at MATT at.

Career view xr.com.

I'm happy to riff on any of
this stuff with folks because I,

this is all speculation, right?

It's it's gonna be crazy.

There are gonna be things that are
gonna be happening that we can't

even imagine and love having these
conversations and also getting ideas

for how do we make sure that the career
view product stays stays on top of all


Mr. Jethro Jones: Yeah.

Very cool.

Thank you so much for being part
of a vision for learning, and it

was great chatting with you today.

Mr. Matthew Chaussee: Great.

Thanks Darro.

Creators and Guests

Jethro Jones
Jethro Jones
Author of #SchoolX #how2be Co-Founder of @bepodcastNet, the best education podcasts out there.
Enhancing Education with Interactive and Immersive Experiences