A Vision for Learning

Welcome to a Vision for Learning,
where we discuss our vision

for what learning can be.

I'm your host, Jethro Jones, and
today I'm excited to have Dr.

Shannon Putman on the show.

She's the founder and owner of Putman
XR Consulting, a company that focuses

on using the most bleeding edge
technology to improve instruction.

She believes that quality instruction
transcends subject matter and age,

so they don't focus on a specific
field or content, but on improving

performance across all disciplines,
including educational classrooms,

athletic fields, and industry.

I'm very excited about having her
on the show because she's been doing

this for a long time, and I even
read her dissertation about using

virtual reality in, pre-service.

Learning opportunities for teachers.

super nerdy, but super fascinating.

And Shannon, welcome to
a Vision for learning.

Thanks for coming.

Thank you for having me.

It's exciting.

So what's the takeaway from our
show today that you think everybody

should listen to it For I.

I think if anybody's ever had any interest
in virtual reality or if there's any

educators who are like, you know what?

I need something new,
something to switch it up.

I need some help.

Then I.

Coming from a classroom teacher who
has been doing it, who understands,

then they can listen and hear some
great ways that they can include

this technology in their instruction.

Yeah, I think what I enjoyed
the most was hearing your

vast experience of doing this.

and we just barely scratched the surface.

I.

We're re recording and releasing
this the day before the Apple Vision

Pro comes out, and so we're gonna
talk about that first and some of

your thoughts and ideas around that.

But the big thing is when Apple enters
the field, they're a huge company and

they're doing a lot in the space, but when
they come in, as you say, it makes people

realize that this thing is here to stay.

and I think that's very accurate and
apt, way to describe it right now.

For me, the big thing was hearing your
vast experience, how you've already

done this, with the resources that
you've had and other VR headsets.

And I just think that it's really cool.

To hear what's available already,
a different way that people can

look at this and see how they can
apply it to their classrooms and

to their learning experiences.

my interview with Shannon is
coming up here in just a moment.

Thanks so much for listening
to a Vision for Learning.

Shannon, I think the best place to start
would be talking about the Apple Vision

Pro and where you see it fitting in this
larger virtual reality ecosystem and what

you've been working in for a long time.

So what are your thoughts about
the Apple Vision Pro itself?

Yeah, so that's a fantastic question
because it's always exciting when you

see Apple get involved in something.

I like to say that if Apple's doing
it, you know, it's here to stay.

And as somebody who's been working
in VR for 10 plus years and has

heard the doomsday statement,
every year of VR is dead.

And knowing that that's not
true, it's very exciting.

I love the idea of the wear of it.

I love the comfort use idea of it.

The what we call an industry pass through
or mixed reality is also fantastic

because there are people who are
very hesitant to try virtual reality.

They don't like to not be able
to see their own environment.

all of those things are
incredibly exciting.

I love the idea of having
multiple onscreen displays.

I do think depending on the
customer, that's going to

need to be a little bit more.

if coming from the educational space,
there's not a huge demand that I've

personally seen to have multiple screens.

That's because we haven't done

Yeah.

had the ability, so we haven't tried it.

I never discount anything.

I think it just is geared, my
initial thoughts are, is it geared

a little bit more towards your
business office type professional,

But that doesn't mean
that it won't translate to

Exactly, and so the thing that I'm
really interested in is using this

device for learning specifically.

And yes, maybe in the
context of a school setting.

Certainly I'm interested in that,
having been a principal myself

and being interested in technology
in the classroom as well, but.

The thing that I'm really excited to
talk with you about is all the work

that you've done around learning with
teachers, with students, and more.

So we'll get into that in just a moment.

I think one of the other things
that I wanna talk about, we are

recording this before the Vision
Pro is released to the public.

I'm getting my Vision Pro
tomorrow, on Launch Day.

Pretty excited about that.

Excited to see what is possible with it.

But as it relates, to some of these new
features, some of these new opportunities,

is there anything that you see with
the Apple Vision Pro that wasn't

possible before with other, devices?

I.

I think we're seeing a real big leap
in the ability to interact with,

whether it be mixed reality, or virtual
reality, but being able to interact.

With the content in a more
fluid and natural manner.

So not having to have controllers
utilizing more of that hand and

eye tracking to update in real
time, I think is a big jump.

and it's very much needed because,
yes, we have six degree of freedom

controllers and that's great.

but it's always, it's still an extra.

Appendage basically that, can
break presence because in the

physical world, if I wanna pick
up my pen, I just pick up my pen.

I don't actually have to use a push,
a trigger button to pick up my pen.

So I think that's exciting because
it just adds more to the presence the

ability to stay engaged in the activity.

I think that's really valuable.

Also, the other thing that I'm thinking
is gonna be really incredible for

people is that if you already have an.

Apple ID and you already have Apple
devices, then you're gonna have a

bunch of tools and apps that, that
you don't have to go out and find,

like you already have access to them.

And I think that part
of it is really neat.

And now, of course, in the school
setting, having it tied to your

own individual Apple ID is a big.

Complex, challenging thing that we've
dealt with for a long time in education.

But I think that piece of having
all that stuff already there and

not having to go out and find it,
I think is gonna be really cool.

Do you have any thoughts on that aspect?

Yeah, I think it's just like with any type
of, cell phone that we have or, tablet.

it's, you always have the
argument with the green

Yeah.

user and the Android user versus the Apple
user and it seems to be a very loyal.

Line between the two.

and so you've got the pro, all the
pros and cons that come with that.

And I do having that ability to
have things right there for you.

I always caution people in that,
thing that comes with that is, if

you have an app and and you make an
education or whatever, it's on there.

It doesn't necessarily
mean it's educational.

however, for all of the.

Maximizing, daily work
and things like that.

it's fantastic.

I'm also interested too, because there
is a slight curve and a lot of people

in general don't quite understand that.

Like, when you have an iPhone,
you're using iOS, you don't

have a MAC operating system.

they tend to think, it, it's not a
MacBook, it's not the same thing.

the iOS system is different, Also
interested to see how, if there's any

type of issues with those kind of things.

Especially because, you got your
Chromebook users, you've got

your, basic laptop user, and
then you got your MacBook users.

And that also seems to be a pretty
definitive line with people.

People either love a
MacBook or they don't.

Yeah, so let's shift a little bit.

You've been introducing virtual
reality to people for years in

your classroom, in your PhD.

Can you talk about that learning curve
of starting to experience something

new and what some of the typical
challenges are that people face when

they're interacting in these kind
of environments for the first time?

Teachers are an amazing group.

we're resilient, especially through
COII feel like we've taken a lot of

hits that people don't quite understand
what we go through on a daily basis.

And so we're asked to do a lot.

We're asked.

To be moms and dads and social workers and
nurses and everything else on top of that.

And so then when I come through
with a new piece of technology,

it's great, something else.

my 14 years in class experience have
really helped me to design my programs

and my training so that I can make
it as easy as possible on teachers.

that's what we need it to be and getting.

to understand that it
is not a replacement.

It is not something that they're
going to be using all day every day.

But it is another tool in their toolkit.

And I talk about it like the,
in the beginning, understanding

how to use the headset.

That's like when we went from an
overhead to a smart board, you're

gonna have a learning curve, but
that's just the next progression.

But where the real training
and the real support and

collaboration is so crucial is.

I have it.

I understand how to use it, but now how do
I actually integrate it into instruction?

Because teachers are a great group, but
I say we always want an app for that.

So they're like, is there an app for that?

Is there an app for that?

if I'm teaching money, like
where's the Let's Teach Money app.

there isn't a Let's Teach
Money app, but there's.

fishing game called bait where kids
can catch fish and then earn coins.

So we have to change our way
of thinking for what we have.

We always wanna continue to develop
new content, of course, but there

doesn't have to be an app for

Shannon, I'm so glad that you said
this because this is specifically why

I am saying that I'm not focused on.

on education as a system specifically,
but rather as learning, because what I

want people to do is have a different
mindset around this, that it's not what's

the program or the app that I can install
into my classroom to meet these standards.

What I want us to be thinking
about is what are the.

Things that I need to do or the in
the opportunities or experiences

that I can create for my students
so that they can learn the

things that I need them to learn.

That may be through a dedicated,
specific program or app for that thing

that you're trying to teach, but as
you just beautifully illustrated,

if it's about money, the fishing
game where you have to go by bait is

actually a pretty good thing to teach.

And a valuable thing for people to, to
use to teach that one specific domain.

and I just, I really appreciate
that perspective because I

think that's really valuable.

And too often in education, we
look for what's the program, the

research based program that's
gonna lead to these outcomes.

And I think we need to open
up our minds a little bit.

See what other things we can bring
in to incorporate and get some

side benefits from something that
is also enjoyable, fun, whatever.

Does that make sense?

What are your thoughts there?

Absolutely.

And we started to do it
with project based learning.

I was like, when that came
out, it was the big thing.

And I'm like.

This is what I do every day.

Yeah.

is just quality instruction.

Like project-based learning
wasn't anything new.

It wasn't anything that you had to do
different, it was just good lessons.

when I was teaching, text clues,
I actually set up a scene and I

had my students do CSI and I had a
little black light and everything.

So we did a real world CSI experience
looking for text clues like that's sh.

That's just good lessons.

So anytime you can have fun in
the classroom and create that

authentic engagement, that's
where you see the most success.

And I think far too many times
the nature of sit and get.

Is put on teachers because we have so
many demands on us now with test scores.

And I don't get me wrong,
I'm not making excuses.

I'm just saying with all these
test scores, and coming in and

are your, I can statements up
on your wall, blah, blah, blah.

Like these little things that I don't
think are getting at the core of what's

important, but actually having students.

Have fun, enjoy what they're doing.

And then as teachers, that allows
us to create and develop better

relationships with our students
because we get to have fun with them.

Like when I did the fishing
with my students, I had more

fun than even some of them did.

And so they still remember that lesson.

And, we're talking about
students who, a Title one school,

98% free and reduced lunch.

And you know what?

They might, but they might never
get the chance to go fishing.

so that in alone was already fun.

But then how all the creativity that
came out of it what was shocking.

So when we did it and the students,
were fishing like they had to,

I just made a quick, Excel sheet
and they had to track every fish.

They caught the name, the weight,
and the stars they earned, and

how much money they earned.

we took it from that, and then we
talked about, okay, this fish was

10 pounds and you got 50 coins.

How heavy do you think it would need
to be to get you a hundred coins?

So now we're talking about estimation.

Then through the lesson.

One of the students said, I went, I,
I tried to fish in the deeper water.

And I said, why?

And she said, because that's
where the bigger fish are.

And I said, why are the bigger
fish in the deeper water?

She said, 'cause they can
handle the cold and the other.

And then we talked about
how, why is the water colder?

'cause it's deeper and
the sun can't get to it.

So it was amazing of a teacher
as I am, and I'm pretty awesome.

I would've never predicted where

that and then also too, like in
the game, I don't know if bait

ever got them but in the game.

If you catch a can,
you don't get anything.

And they were like, you're
cleaning up the environment, you

should get something for that.

And I said, you're absolutely right.

And so then the classroom teacher
had them do their writing piece as a

persuasive writing piece to the game
company to make a change to the game,

to help clean up the environment.

So all of that stemmed off
of one 30 minute VR lesson.

And that's what I try to tell
people, you don't know the power

of it until you actually do it.

so why did all those things
stem from that one VR lesson?

Is that just because you're
an amazing teacher or because

the kids were more engaged?

what's your hypothesis on why you
made so many other connections.

I joke

Yeah.

an awesome teacher 'cause
I am, but no, it's because.

We got to spend that lesson
learning, playing and having fun.

So I didn't have to spend time on
behavior and behavior management.

And the teacher said to me,
'cause she, there was a pretty

tough class, and she goes, you
didn't have any behavior problems.

And I said, I know.

And she goes, no.

Like the whole time.

And I said.

I know because the kids were having
so much fun, they were enjoying it and

there were so many authentic social
conversational exchanges that I, as

an adult, could not have scripted
for them that it was just fun.

So it was like we almost
forgot that we were learning.

And then like kids that like weren't
allowed to stand next to each other in

line, they were talking to each other
about what fish they caught, didn't

make 'em best friends or anything
like that, but for that one hour.

They weren't fighting each other.

So that's the other missing
piece that I think in education

we always get too far away from.

They're like, the kids need
to be intrinsically motivated,

intrinsic motivation.

We're just not gonna give 'em a cookie.

I understand that.

However, having an external motivation
doesn't necessarily mean we're giving

them a cookie, and VR allows them to
have fun and learn at the same time.

and it takes them out of the
learning environment and puts them

into a virtual environment that is
different from what they are used to.

and I.

My opinion on this, and I'd
love to hear your thoughts.

Also, my opinion on this is that by
being in that different environment,

you are able to let your guard down
a little bit and you, especially

with students who struggle in
school with the academic stuff,

like the idea of estimating how much
they'd get if they caught a hundred pound

fish or whatever your example, there was.

That example could be really
challenging for a student in a typical

classroom to try to estimate that.

But in this situation,
they're just playing a game.

They're just having fun and
the risk of looking dumb.

Falls away a bit.

and so what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, absolutely.

And the reason I always say that VR is
so effective is because it takes those

higher order concepts and it makes it.

Possible.

It makes it real.

So we're always asking kids to
imagine things, like estimation

is an, is a is imagined.

he didn't have to imagine because
he could catch a bigger fish.

And the best part about the
game was when you squeezed the

trigger, it actually pulled back
like the fish was pulling back.

So you felt the weight of it pulling.

So if it was a heavier fish
you had to hold on a little

bit longer and everything else.

So they could physically feel what
it was like to catch a heavier fish.

And.

allows us to consume 3D content
in a 3D medium, which is another

reason for its effectiveness.

so many times we ask kids to learn
volume by showing 'em a picture of a

cube and being like, okay, now imagine
there's three more blocks behind it.

that's incredibly challenging and there's
are adults that still struggle with it.

I myself am horrible.

Spatial awareness.

And if you look at my car, you'll
know because I hit a lot of stuff.

'cause I think I have room and I don't.

So then we get out the unifix
cubes, and that works because it's

3D and they can actually see the
makeup of the volume of the cube.

So VR allows 'em to do that.

But we don't have to have
all these different, cubes

and everything else around.

But to physically feel how much
heavier something is adds in

those higher order concepts.

so with, for example, the Apple
Vision Pro, you're not gonna

have, handsets to feel that.

Kind of resistance.

So I'm curious what those kinds of
experiences are gonna look like, but I

wanna shift just a little bit and talk
about this idea of a teacher having an

idea and then being able to create it.

In a virtual reality environment,
and how challenging is that?

What does that take?

How much effort and time and
energy needs to go into that?

Because what you're describing with
the fishing game, like that's just one

of many that I know that you've done.

but that's not.

that's a different game that somebody else
created, but you've also created things.

And so I wanna talk a little bit about
what the creation aspect is like and

how difficult and challenging that
is for a teacher to create resources

or to just have to find resources.

Is it possible for a teacher
to create their own resources?

Absolutely.

So there's every level of support.

you can have your standard, unreal unity,
scripting, coding, all that kind of stuff.

However, I was not an
am, not a programmer.

And I created my entire dissertation
experience, which, was actually

where you've relive the life
of Representative John Lewis.

And you start with him preaching
to his chickens on his farm in

Troy, and it goes all the way up
through the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

And I created all of that in,
a software called In Engage.

And Engage has been a fantastic
piece of education because it allows

us to create instantly and not have
any programming or coding needed.

And so we're starting to see, more
programs that allow that, this no code

type programming and things like that.

And, we're going to need
to continue to have those.

And then what's exciting as well is
ai, everybody, it's a big buzz term

and stuff like that, and people, either
are afraid of it or they love it,

but understanding how we can actually
integrate that into instruction.

So like with X reps,
the football simulation.

where you actually play as the
quarterback and you do cognitive based

drills and students are learning, all
those concrete tasks that they need.

one of the updates in the future
is gonna be your own coach.

So the teacher could get in there in
the morning and say, Hey coach, we're

gonna be working on chemical bonds today.

I want their drills to be
focused around chemical bonds.

And then the coach can create it right
away and they don't have to do anything.

So that's the verge of what we're on,
and that's where it's exciting for me

and exciting to use those kind of things.

The X reps thing, that sounds pretty cool.

that is specifically for a quarterback to
learn how to get better at passing, right?

So what in the world are you
doing using this, Shannon?

I'm originally from Syracuse, New
York, so I'm a lifelong Bills fan.

it's been horrible and
wonderful all at the same time.

so I've played sports my whole
life, football being one of them.

And, I've always.

Loved it.

I've loved sports and everything,
but in my classroom I never did

things the same as everybody else.

I always, I didn't like worksheets,
so I created a drill, where I went

to the dollar store and I got pool
noodles and I made 'em into a ring and

I slapped a piece of dry erase tape on
there and I hung them from my ceiling.

And so then I would have my
students, they'd have to run over.

Solve a math problem, run over to
the line, pick up the football, and

then throw it through the ring with
the correct answer instead of sitting

and looking at a worksheet and making
an array and doing it that way.

And so I always had more success 'cause
my students were engaged, they were

activating both sides of their brain,
crossing, midline, doing all this stuff.

So I found X reps and they were
a quarterback simulation system.

And I said, Hey.

kinda got these ideas and I said, why
don't you make a smarter quarterback?

And so that's where we
developed it from there.

And then basically taking what I did
in the classroom and putting it in VR

and bringing it back to the classroom.

And one exciting thing about
X Reps is we focus on a skill

called spatial awareness that I.

Mentioned a little bit earlier.

and it's a skill that everybody
needs, but nobody teaches.

And we think we do, but we don't.

It's not a cognitive ability, it's
the ability to understand my body and

space, how it takes up space, and how.

objects interact in space.

And I had mentioned my car.

if you look at my forearms too, they're
always bruised because I always run

into the door, handle with my arm.

'cause I just am, I'm just not good.

that's incredibly important
for any person in life.

a quarterback needs to be able to
survey the field and then look and see

if there somebody's, if a receiver is
open, and they have to know how big of

a space they have to fit that ball in.

But then they also need to know how hard
they can throw it and how, with what

velocity and what angle, and to know, and
I'll process this in a 10th of a second,

if they can fit that ball through that.

Some quarterbacks can, some quarterbacks
think they can and some maybe don't.

but that's a spatial awareness skill that
is not a cognitive ability, so in order to

train that, that's what these drills do.

And when that translates
into education, that goes to

everything that goes into welding.

you have to have your torch at
the right distance, otherwise your

weld is going to be ineffective.

All those kinds of things.

So it.

Translates to every aspect of life.

And that's why I tell teachers too, like
there doesn't have to be an app for that.

yes, you teach carpentry, however,
they're going to need spatial

awareness and math skills.

So we can do those things to
also reach that same end goal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really fascinating.

So one of the things that, you had talked
about, and I don't remember how much you

said, on this call compared to the last
call we had, but the idea of using this

tool to help you, have kids say this is.

Do some math work or whatever and be able
to throw the ball through the correct,

hoop in the sky basically in, in the room.

Will you talk a little bit more about
that, because I thought that was a really

fascinating way and a fascinating idea
of how to combine these things like

we've been talking about the whole time.

Yeah, it's just fun.

I have adult, people, adults,
male females that love to play

it, and they don't care that they.

Have to answer a simple math problem,
because they get to be a quarterback.

And as we come out with more developments,
to make it even more exciting and things

like that, it's gonna be even better.

but it goes back to that arm
share quarterback, everybody

thinks they can do it.

And then, might as well.

Make it educational and
have some fun with it.

But what's neat too is you
actually have to clap your

hands together to snap the ball.

And then some quarterbacks don't know
that the right answer isn't always there.

So at times during the drills, the
right answer is not in one of the rings.

So you actually have to throw
the ball away to the sideline.

'cause in football, sometimes throwing
the ball away is the right answer.

So we try to make it as like
real as possible so that people.

They, can just enjoy and have
fun and again, step out of

themselves for a little bit.

And I've had, I have kids that, don't
even like football and they'll play it.

and, and adults too.

because it, like I said, it allows
us just to some fun and, and I

always, like I said, I always liked
movement and things because it.

Any time we can activate more parts
of our brain and more parts of our

body and get those engaged in our
learning, we're going to see more

Yeah.

Al also, the last thing too is it allows.

people, anybody that does it, it
allows you to get multiple repetitions

in a very short period of time.

So we know there's some kids that it takes
them five exposures to learn the content.

Others, it takes 500.

in one three minute game of X reps,
you can get 50 to 80 repetitions of

a subject, and that's invaluable.

I was, in, in doing some research
for this, it was looking at another,

company and what they're doing and they.

They train employees and their
onboarding, processes and they said

that the onboarding process for one
company they worked with went from

eight hours down to 15 minutes and

Right.

crazy for them to learn and know how to
do what they need to do at their job.

It only took 15 minutes of training with
a VR headset on and they were able to.

to be proficient at their job.

last question.

what, what are you excited
about for the future?

anything that, it can
be anything you want.

No, no limits on time,
space, money, anything.

what's something that you see
that's exciting that you would say,

man, if I had all the money, time,
expertise, whatever in the world,

this is what I do, what would that be?

Outside of the bills
winning the Super Bowl.

I'm assuming you mean so, okay.

All right.

I honestly, I started saying
five years ago when I.

started my PhD journey that within five
to eight years we're gonna see VR headsets

in schools like we have Chromebooks now.

And I've been bang on with that and I'm
trying to continue to ensure that happens.

So what I, if money and everything
wasn't an option, then every student

would have the accessibility to
be able to hop into a headset and.

However that looks, whether that's,
mixed reality, whether that is,

full on immersive virtual reality,
but have the ability to learn.

In the manner that suits them.

I've always said that I never
changed the way my kids learn.

I changed the way I teach.

So if we could see teachers starting
to embrace the fun and excitement

of education again, I think it,
it's gotten so contentious lately.

and so the more fun that we can
have and the more students that can.

Can learn to be successful
and survive in this world.

Man, that, that's it right there.

that's the money shot because
that's what we're trying to do.

And I love also that VR gives
accessibility to students who are

typically, often overlooked, or the
last ones included, my special education

students, using pass through with deaf
students so they can enjoy the experience

and still see their interpreter.

Not just slapping closed captioning on
there and thinking that's gonna work.

that is also what I think
really gets me excited is the

accessibility and representation
and access that can be provided

for people who otherwise have been

Yeah, for sure.

I think that's really amazing too.

on, on that piece, career View xr,
which, Matt Choi was just on this

show and he connected me with you.

They are donating I.

A HCC Vive to every, public
and private secondary school

in the state of North Dakota.

and that is a really exciting
thing that, like that fulfills

your vision right there, that I.

we're starting out with
just one, and that's okay.

everybody talks about, this is too
expensive to have one for every student.

as you explained in this
episode, so clearly it doesn't

have to be one per student.

You can take turns.

You can, when everybody has this
shared experience, then it's a, a.

A unique new experience for everybody that
was personalized to them and how their

success was or not within that system.

And I just think that is pretty cool.

So congrats to Matt on making
that happen and having that

experience in North Dakota.

That's pretty cool.

That's amazing.

And another shout out
to Matt in Career View.

So what I do love about, being my own
boss now, is that I get to pick and

choose who I want to work with and
who I think, has the same values like.

That I do and has that same guiding
question of what's best for students.

And so career view of their own dime is
actually working with me and the Kentucky

School for the Deaf, and we are going to
film interpreters, on green screen, and

they're going to actually add interpreters
into all of their experiences so that.

the deaf students don't have to take
the headset off to be able to experience

everything in the same manner.

And then what's also exciting is
we're gonna be making companion videos

with the students at KSD, and they're
gonna, they're going to teach the.

and most important signs from the
experience so that now our hearing

community can learn the signs with them
and learn to communicate with them,

which is that crucial final component.

couldn't be more excited to be
working with career view and the

fantastic work that they're doing and.

And the last thing is, I'll
say, I promise to that point

of I loved Google Expeditions.

Don't get me wrong.

It was fantastic.

It got teachers to actually
try to start to use vr.

however, it set up this narrative
that I have to have all my

students on at the same time.

and you absolutely do not.

You can, and I've done it.

I've had 40 students on a
headset in one room at the same

time, and did it successfully.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

There are so many funds.

Things you can do.

so I always say I would, if I can only
get one VR headset, I'd get one all

day, every day and twice on Sunday.

I think it's fantastic the work
that's being done by career view and

everybody that you know, is in this
field and has been in this field

in the trenches, putting the work

Yeah.

where everybody else is finally
starting to get it, which is beyond

Yeah, it's very cool.

so you've been doing this for a long time.

This is not new to you.

How do people get in touch with you and
learn, how to work with you to bring

these experiences into their classrooms?

I.

Yeah, absolutely they can.

they, I, they can email me, which I.

When I was, I'll admit I'm a noob,
when I was starting my business and

so my email's a little bit long, but,
it's shannon@putmanxrconsulting.com

or I'm on LinkedIn and I'm currently,
about to launch my website,

which will be very exciting.

so that will be coming soon
and I can definitely follow

up with you when I have that

Yeah, I think people will be listening
to this later when that is launched.

So putnam@putmanxrconsulting.com.

We'll put a link to that in the show
notes, as well as your LinkedIn profile

so that people can reach out to you.

And I think, you've been
doing this for a long time.

I, and the good thing about Apple
entering the space is that it's

bringing awareness to something
that you've already been doing.

So you're already an expert and can
help people get moving in the right.

Direction with that.

So thanks again, Shannon, for being here.

Appreciate your time today.

No thank you.

I couldn't have had more fun.

I really appreciate it.