A Vision for Learning

AVFL Aaron Makelky
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[00:00:00] welcome to a Vision for Learning, a proud member of the B Podcast Network. This show is so fun because we get to talk about the future of learning and what that looks like. So we've done a lot of talking about the Apple Vision Pro.

Maybe we'll talk a little bit about that in this episode, but we're also talking about. Uh, AI and what the future of learning could look like. So today we have on the show Aaron McKey. He is a husband, a father of three, a leader and a teacher, and he holds a successful career in public education and coaching. He's based in Casper, Wyoming, where he currently teaches high school social studies and embarked on a business venture in December of 2023. In his newfound entrepreneurial pursuit, he has immersed himself in the world of consulting and online business. learning about vision pursues performance mindset for athletes and coaches. Aaron RELs has the opportunity to explore technology aiding his students in harnessing its potential in the spring of [00:01:00] 2023. He utilize chat GBT in his own class assignments to gain a thorough understanding of its applications, and he encourages his students to leverage writing tutors and custom chatbots, which he's been experiencing, experimenting with since the fall of 2023. Aaron is constantly crowdsourcing his teaching methods from his students, integrating hands-on learning strategies and simulations, along with Spotify playlists. For most of his lessons, he recognizes the crucial role of preparing students for their futures, acknowledging the need for transformation within the public education system, and you'll be able to learn more from him@aaronmackey.com. Aaron, welcome to a Vision for Learning. Excited to have you here.

Thank you, Jethro. That was a, a very flattering introduction. I don't usually get ones like that, so I appreciate you having me on today.

Well, and I didn't even, I barely scratched the surface. And that's, that's the amazing thing is as you and I have been chatting over the past couple of weeks, I've just been inspired by your dedication [00:02:00] and excitement about doing cool things, not just with your. Uh, students, but also with your own self and your own professional growth.

And so, uh, so I just kind of wanted to start there. You, you said it that in, uh, December of 2023, you got this, business venture entrepreneurial spirit that, that ignited in you. What happened? Like what made you feel like you needed to be more entrepreneurial than you had been before?

Well, it's a, it's a long story, but the short version is like most in history. sometimes you are forced to make a change that you probably should have done a long time ago, but you didn't have that nudge you needed. and as a career football coach, I'd always chase that and put a lot of time and effort into that.

And, um, that came to an end. And so. I sat down and tried to figure out what else could I do, and made my wife a promise and said, the time I had been putting into football, I'll put into a [00:03:00] side hustle or my own business or a website. I had no idea what I was doing, and one or two hours a day just started building.

So fascinating. And the reason why I think this is such a pivotal question to ask is that our time is so valuable and it's the only thing that we all have the same amount of every day, and how we spend that time really matters. And what I've noticed for myself is, especially over the past couple years, as different things have become priorities for me, that desire to spend that time more intentionally has become. More powerful and, and there are things that I've started doing that I've never done before in my life. Like going to the gym regularly. Uh, I haven't done that in my whole entire life, and I have done that pretty much every single day except for Sundays for the last year almost. And I never thought that I had time to go to the gym. [00:04:00] I always thought I was too busy. And now all of a sudden, because that's a priority, that's, that's where I'm spending my time. what what other lessons or insight do you have to share on that, Aaron?

Well, uh, first, congratulations. 'cause I mean, that's a, that's a life changing habit and just talking with my co-teacher today about she was working out this morning and didn't have as much weight on as the people in her group and. I think it was James Clear that said every habit is just a vote for the future person you're trying to become.

And it doesn't matter how intense the workout is or how much weight's on the bar, it's just, I'm the kind of person that works out and that's a life changing thing. So keep that rolling for you. For me, um, I think it's just been that teachers and myself included in this, are capable of a lot more than what we give ourselves credit and some.

In our profession. I know you've worked with principals and school leaders that have felt the same way outside the ecosystem of public education. 'cause that's all I've known. I don't have any skillset or any use [00:05:00] or anything of value. And maybe the biggest one that all of us have that we may not realize is our network, especially teachers, if you just drew a web through the world.

Of every kid who's ever passed through your classroom or if you've coached every kid who's ever passed through your locker room and put that on a map or a mind map. Teachers and all educators have extensive networks. We just don't always realize that or have, have a need for 'em.

Yeah, that's, that's incredible because you're absolutely right. We do have those networks and we often don't see the value in them. Uh, especially for teachers who are leaving the profession. They sometimes are like, I don't know how to do anything but teach. And yet they likely have someone they could call and say, Hey, how can I help you?

And they'd be like, oh, you'll help me with something. I'll do it. I don't care what it is. I'll, I'll find a place for you. And I think that that's a really powerful thing. [00:06:00] So let's, let's adjust this time piece a little bit into using artificial intelligence in schooling and how that, how that works with time.

Because even though AI's been around for a bit, um, it, it still is a new kind of thing for a lot of people and I. They don't know what it can do. What are some of the ways that you have been using it yourself, uh, as a teacher to help your students and help yourself? Also, save time.

That's the million dollar question. When a student first showed me chat, GPT, of course it was on TikTok in November of 2022. And I remember thinking, that can't be real. There's no way. That's just some website you can log in and access on your own and do this stuff. And so I'm the kind of person that likes to experiment and try new things.

And the more I looked at it, I [00:07:00] knew it was gonna change education. It's just a matter of how fast and in what ways.

Yeah.

the, the thing that I did is a semester change happened, we have an intensive block schedule. So in January I got all new kids, kinda like a college calendar, and I just said, I'm gonna use AI to do every assignment I give you.

Take every quiz, write every paper, and I'm gonna suck at it and have no idea what I'm doing. But by the end of the semester, I bet I'm ahead of 99% of people 'cause they won't start. And that was really how I got my. Intro into using generative AI in the classroom.

Okay, so hold on a second. So are you saying that for every assignment you created for them, you used ai or are you saying that you took, responded to all the assignments using ai?

I used AI, mostly chat GPT, but not exclusively to [00:08:00] do my own assignments as if I were a student in my class. So I assigned things, lesson plans, materials as I had before, but then when kids would be writing a. A paragraph response or quoting from primary sources, I would just put my screen up on the front and say, you guys do it your way.

I'll do it my way, and we'll see who can get it done faster and better. And it just kind of became this running experiment, and I was terrible at it at first. And like all people, they go, oh, this sounds bad. It's not what I wanted. This thing sucks. And then you realize, well, the output sucks because the input sucked and you can always tweak it and give it more feedback.

Yeah. Garbage in, garbage out, and. That's one of those things that is, is super important in this. you're, you're doing all the work as the kids are. Are they starting to say, oh, I should just use AI also? [00:09:00] Like how, how did that conversation go?

Well, I would say in January of 2023. In most of my classes, a small percentage even knew what it was, whether that's chat GPT or AI in general. And so their first response was kind of like, what is that?

Mm-Hmm.

And within a couple of weeks, most of 'em had seen it. The school started blocking it predictably, and then they start asking questions and I'm like, how'd you get that to come out so well, so fast.

And then that inevitably leads to the question of, well, can I do it that way? And if I do, is that cheating?

Well, that is the question that so many people are still asking, and although I'm a little bit bored of that question, uh, because it, yeah, I think it's focusing on the wrong thing.

What was your learning from that? Did you think that, like, the thing that I say is, if you're circumventing the [00:10:00] learning, then it's, it's not a worthwhile thing to do. Whether it's cheating or not, I think is the wrong thing to, to even say, but the goal of education is to learn. So if you are circumventing the learning, that's a problem in my mind. But if you are, if you are. Automating the things that you already know how to do, then I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

And in fact, I think it's silly to not automate the things that you already can do. Uh, so, so what's your takeaway in response to that?

Well, I, I think the fundamental question is what's the real purpose of that assignment or what real learning do you want your students to engage in? And I am a history teacher by trade, so I always default to my school district. Many years ago, just over a decade ago, was the second one in the state to have one-to-one devices with students and teachers [00:11:00] especially history had their world blown up when all of a sudden kids had Google and Wikipedia and any online encyclopedia or history.com website at their fingertips.

Is it cheating then to Google something like a fact a year, a date, A Wikipedia article, would we say? No? Part of the learning is you have to go to the library, you have to walk down there, take a pass. You have to wait in line. You have to know the Dewey Decimal system. You have to find the book. You have to check out the book.

You have to come back to class. You have to sit down, you have to flip to this chapter. You have to copy the notes down. Or did we just remove a lot of the friction to the real learning, the labor, so to speak, and say, boom, here's that info instantly right in front of you. Now we can get to the real learning.

And that's how I viewed wifi and laptops first coming into classrooms. And that radically changed my teaching because student learning had to change. And anybody [00:12:00] who says AI can be blocked or filtered or it's just cheating, um. I, I don't think they understand the history of technology because that's never been the case before.

And a lot of really smart people, way smarter than I say, this is only gonna get bigger. And in some ways it's, it's bigger than the internet. It's bigger than the personal computer or the smartphone. It's up there with electricity with what it can do. And so I think it's offload the manual labor and the friction so that we can get right to the thing that matters.

So, so what would you say is the thing that matters, especially let, and let's get real specific with your history class. What is the thing that actually matters?

Well beyond the curriculum 'cause that's not gonna change Citizenship, critical thinking, finding a purpose, belonging to something bigger than yourself. Evaluating sources, corroborating. I mean, history can [00:13:00] really be taught with any content. You can take any time period, any novel, any war, and then you pull back the content and get to the skills and say, how do we apply evaluating sources bias and comparing those to other sources and then corroborating them?

Well, AI can help us do that. Um, one of the biggest things that I noticed unexpectedly was I had a student on an IEP who read at a very low level. And a lot of the texts that we're reading, this is a 11th grade class, are challenging I. nonfiction, uh, textbook excerpts and witness accounts from wars and elections and things like that.

And before you would have to take a one-on-one aid or a special ed co-teacher and say, go level that text. I. And that takes man hours and they're human. So even though they might be really good at their job, it's gonna take 'em an hour and they're gonna do it pretty well. And I [00:14:00] realized that.

student could take control of his own learning And.

know what level he needed the text to be on.

He could paste it in. Get a summary or a revision or an outline or bullet points, and it not only takes the burden off of the adult who can now go do something else, but then the student is in control of his learning and can get exactly what he needs without someone else having to do it for him.

Mm-Hmm. Yeah, that piece right there I think is so incredibly powerful because what you do is you give kids the opportunity to really be. In control of what it is that they learn and this, what we have done in the past is to protect their feelings or protect their privacy is we haven't told them, Hey, you're actually reading at a third grade level and this is what that looks like and here's how you can access [00:15:00] anything that's out there.

Here's a way that you can access it. We don't do that. We do that for them. And then we give them that so that we, they still have to get everything that they learn from an adult, from a teacher, and it's much more difficult for them to do it on, on their own. So what you're talking about is having this knowledge and know-how to go and get their own solutions rather than only be able to get it from the teacher themselves, which I think is really cool.

Yeah, and especially with that example, let's say. Special education, IEP by law, we have these things to do that doesn't replace what that adult was doing. It frees them up from what was really the tedious, menial task of leveling a text to I can go help these other kids and build relationships and put more time into the lesson planning.

And then the student is also benefiting at the same [00:16:00] time. And so I, I don't see any drawback or negative to that model at all.

Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I, I think that is just empowering for students to have that as an opportunity rather than, you can only get, you can only read the things that we give you because you can't access anything else. Uh, I think that's really powerful. So, uh, Marvin Berkowitz talks about. The, the other things that you were talking about, the kids need to learn, character development, things like that.

He talks about those as organic skills, which is I think my new favorite way to describe that. Organic as opposed to mechanistic. And he describes the mechanistic skills as the friction that you were talking about, of going to the library, knowing the Dewey Decimal system, finding a book, bringing it back, and reading through it as those are.

Technical mechanistic skills that are explicit and can't be taught. The [00:17:00] other skills like how to use AI appropriately and when you know whether or not it's cheating or, or being used inappropriately, those are the skills that we really want kids to know. And everybody agrees with that. And if you ask any group of people like what?

What lessons did you really learn? What things do you know? That you will like never go back on. Those are things that they, that are, those are organic skills and rather than the, the mechanistic skills. And I just think that the more we focus on that, and I really appreciate what you said here about that, that that you really need to think about what is it you're trying to teach them.

And, and I just, I appreciate that conversation. So let's talk about the future. What do you see as the vision for the future of education? I. Where are we going?

Yeah, that's a, that's a dangerous question to ask me. What I would say, uh, my brain just works in analogies, and [00:18:00] I think that's a common thing for history teachers is public education is within sight of the shore. Rowing a rowboat and a nuclear powered aircraft carrier or a jet boat just blew by us so fast that they're already out of sight and we don't know what we missed because it's not close enough to see.

Mm-Hmm.

And I, I think the root of a lot of that is fear. I think the policymakers and leaders in schools chase these things that have always been problems and will always take up their time, like chronic absenteeism, funding, curriculum changes, state standards. And we're so busy chasing these little things around which you could stay busy on 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Ask any principal that We don't realize that the answer's already [00:19:00] here. We just have to start to learn how to use it and be okay with trying it out, uh, breaking it, having it not work perfectly, making a mistake with it. I'm just a big proponent of view these things as experiments and to the classroom teacher.

What I've learned, kids love it when you walk in and say, Hey, do you want to try something new today? Not saying it's gonna be good. It may not even work at all. Do you wanna try something new? I've never had a class of kids say, Nope, let's just go back to textbooks. You lecture, we'll take notes. That's safe.

We prefer that. They go, Yeah, let's do something new. And then there's a time to reflect and. Evaluate and change and say, okay, I thought that'd be cool. It was terrible. Uh, we'll never do that again. But now I know. Or, wow, that was, that was pretty good, but here's how we could make it even better next week in this lesson.

And if you take AI with that mindset instead of, I'm too busy with meetings and grading. [00:20:00] I mean, when people tell me they're too busy to learn ai, I just laugh on the inside and go, well, I know one way to be less busy, but if you don't wanna learn, that's okay. You're always gonna be busy with all the old stuff.

Yeah. You know, I, I think about the time and energy that we've spent on, like a curriculum adoption, for example, takes like a year and a half. And it happens every six to 10 years. And like when you think about that, like by the time this, like in an elementary school, by the time a student gets to the grade that's going to be used, you're already working on the next adoption, uh, for that kid who's starting in kindergarten.

By the time they get to your fifth grade classroom, you're already working on the next adoption of that curriculum and. and. it is just so fascinating because we get tied into these things and it seems like such a waste of time and energy and [00:21:00] money to, to be doing an adoption once every six years when, boy, it just seems, it seems like there's a lot of problems there.

And yet, like that's the whole job of the curriculum department, right? And, and that's what they do every year with a different thing. And the only reason they do it with a different curriculum every year is because they can't do 'em all at once. So they have to stagger 'em out. And it's not, it's not based on need.

It's based on capacity of the adults rather than what it is that the kids actually need.

yeah, and, and that's where people say, well, how do you. How do you turn something that's so slow? And I don't know the answer, but I know what we're doing is not the answer. And we just need people that are willing to look outside the status quo. And the, this has always been the curriculum adoption cycle and the processes that it goes through.

I mean, to me, how many public schools in America have a policy [00:22:00] for staff use of AI tools for student use? Have given some tools and some training and some use cases to their staff and students, and then revised that because that's, that's where the business world is, right? They, last year was the Wild West, and it was like, what could this even do?

And now people have found some very efficient, effective, finance potent ways to use these tools because they have an incentive and. Public school is set up on different incentives. You know, we want to prepare the workforce and create citizens. It's not a for-profit enterprise, but if those enterprises found ways to do it, it's absolutely possible.

It's just how do we align the incentives of the system we're in and the mindset of the people who are in those leadership positions towards wanting to find a different way and saying like, we should already have an AI curriculum. There are schools in. At least international [00:23:00] schools that have a curriculum.

Here's how we teach it. Here's the tools, here's what's allowed and what's not. And I think once teachers see that those things exist, I hope they kind of clamor for that and say, why not us? Why not our school district? I.

Yeah. But even there, um, Aaron, that is still us going back to the same thing we've always done before and saying we need to make a curriculum for ai. Do we really? I don't know that we do. You know that that's a teacher way of thinking, that's an educator way of thinking, but there are lots of people out there who are figuring it out just by going down their own, down their own path and trying to figure it out on their own.

Is that so bad and is that, is that bad? In education also? We sure act like it is because we try to ize everything when I don't think we really need to.

Yeah.

[00:24:00] Well that's why you're a, you're a rebel talent because you recognize there is something outside of the snow globe. I think it's not only, okay, it's necessary because within the ecosystem of public ed, it's not gonna happen. And so people might say, well, you shouldn't go off on your own or do your own thing, or even leave education to pursue those things.

But I, I've learned just in a matter of months that a great way to do it. And it's a very liberating experience and you can go. Pursue things that, like you said, not only aren't in the curriculum, but maybe that's not where they belong. Um, the, the best people in the world that teach these things in the private world that I've found, they do weekly video meetings and they say, here's the new thing.

Here's what we built. Here's the tool. And that video isn't gonna be archived or recorded. And next week we'll meet and there'll be something totally [00:25:00] new and different. And if you tried to build a course like, okay, sophomores, take intro to generative ai and here's the curriculum. By the time public education even had an outline, it would be outdated right now.

And so.

Exactly.

think anyone, I don't think anyone disagrees with your disposition towards that. The question just becomes, so then how do we use it? How do we teach kids? And I'm a big proponent of just experimentation. Take the task, add this tool, and let's see what happens. And if it's not a good outcome, then we can change the tool or we can change the task.

But. I, I think you know the updates, it'll be like how you get a software update on your iPhone every month and a half. I mean, the rate of change with AI being at everyone who wants it fingertips is incomprehensible right now. I.

So how do you respond then when people say, well, this is my kids' life that you're talking [00:26:00] about. I don't want every day in class to be an experimentation. I want to know what I'm getting from them Attending your class. How do you respond to that? I've got my own answer. I'll tell it after yours,

or I can tell it first if you want.

Whatever.

uh, I'll tell you mine 'cause I wrote this down 'cause I, I knew, uh, this was gonna come up somehow. So last Friday in the class that's gonna take place, um, this afternoon in my classroom, I could tell that some kids were frustrated. Even some adults kind of like, okay, well why are we doing it this way?

So I said, okay, field trip. And we do these things called movement snacks. It's like a one to five minute exercise in the middle of an 85 minute block. 'cause all the research says you shouldn't sit all day. And I said, here's the movement snack. We're gonna walk to the front doors of the school. And kids are kinda like, okay, what are we doing there?

So we walk down. Above the front doors. Most of them had never even noticed it and no one could quote me what it set up there in big, [00:27:00] bold letters. It says Over the front doors of our institution preparing all students for their next steps. And I said, okay. Now when we go back to class in two minutes, do you want to do worksheets?

Do you want to use Wikipedia or do you want.

to take the lesson we were gonna do, keep the content and the skills the same, but you're gonna use Microsoft copilot. And I said, now look one more time. You know, what should we do if that's really what we are here for? And our purpose and our mission is to prepare all students for their next steps.

Which one do you need to learn? And they're like, well, I don't even know what my next steps are. And I said, I don't either, but I know what it's not. And we went back and I, I forced all kids to use generative ai. That doesn't mean it writes it forum and there's no thinking, but. They went, wow, I'm terrible at this.

Like half my students had no idea how to use it. And I said, well, I think this is something like this will be in your next steps no matter what kind of job you have. [00:28:00]

Yeah, and you're probably gonna use that to get a job also, uh, because writing a hundred different, uh, letter cover letters is. That takes time and it's not, uh, it's not a lot of fun to keep going back to that and doing it again and again and again, and not getting the results that you want applying for college.

Um, all those things, that's probably gonna be part of it. So my answer to the concern that you're just experimenting on my kids is that honestly, it's already experimentation. We already

don't know what we're doing. And people say like, the science of reading is out there and we know how to teach reading.

And yet you can go to two people who have shown the same results and see that they're using two completely different approaches. And we may think that we know what learning looks like, but the reality is is that we are at best guessing. And a lot of [00:29:00] times they're educated guesses and there are some things that we do know do work well, but the reality is, is that kids are changing.

I was just heard about a study that IQ points have gone up by three percentage points every 10 years, um, and that they've had to reor the IQ test to keep that standard score of a hundred happening. That's from the book range. by. Somebody can't remember the name right now off the top of my head, but the book is called Range and they talk about it in chapter two, just so you know.

Uh, I didn't make it up, but those are things that like, that's important to know and understand. So I guess my last question for you, Aaron, is what would be your advice to someone who is interested in this stuff but is getting pushed back in their district? Or from their parents or from their students.

Um, what, what would you say they should do to, to be more focused on this future vision of [00:30:00] education?

Well, unless they are preparing all their students to be conformists and consumers and factory workers, it's gotta be something different than public education initially began, and I. If every other industry has changed, why would we be the only ones that that wouldn't? I mean, if you could fly on a Gulfstream jet and that was the aeronautics industry, but we still had Model T's, we'd say, okay, well maybe that one's gonna catch up and level the playing field. And it's the same I, I think. Teachers are afraid to take risks with it 'cause they don't understand it. And then administrators are too busy chasing other things to really appreciate how powerful it would be for students, for staff, for them as leaders, and they don't see the potential that it has. And then I think the higher you go up the chain, I mean all the way to Congress, but even say a school board in a rural district in [00:31:00] Kansas or Missouri or something. They're, they're not gonna push for that, and I think they're the most disconnected. The answer to a lot of these questions is in the front row of your classroom, and when I did a co-pilot lesson where kids had to use Gen AI to write, I had a student who knew I. Significantly more than me about prompting and feedback and even just the platform of co-pilot.

And I looked at him, I said, that girl that's been waiting for me with this question, you need to go over and you just help her 'cause you're gonna do it as well or better than me, but I wanna see what you did, like, show me what you taught her so that I can figure it out. And. All of our schools have kids like that.

There may not be 50% of your population, but if you kind of take that risk in front of your kids and say, we're gonna try this, you're gonna hear a kid from the back row that goes, oh Yeah.

I build custom GPTs in my basement every night and this is what I do with it. Could I show you? And then you just go, yep, here's the clicker, or we'll put [00:32:00] your screen up today and we'll follow you.

And that's a powerful thing.

Aaron, that, uh, that thing that you just said of the answers in the front row of your class, man, you're so absolutely right and take advantage of the kids learning this on their own and, and don't be afraid of it like.

If kids are playing with it, talk about it and don't, don't threaten them that they're gonna lose points or they're gonna be called cheaters, or whatever the thing is that your district is doing that is really backwards. Like just embrace it and recognize all their parents are using it all, all the adults around them are using it.

Instead of punishing them for doing the same thing that we're doing, let's, let's bring them out and say, Hey, what can you do to teach us? I, I think that that is. Uh, that is just brilliant and, and definitely what we should be doing more of in, in more than just this one specific case. So, uh, very good stuff.

How would you like people to connect [00:33:00] with you if they want to chat more about this kind of stuff and the, the experiments that you've run in your class?

Yeah, so my website is aaron mackey.com, A-A-R-O-N-M-A-K-E-L-K y.com. My ex or Twitter handle is at Aaron Mackey, same spelling. Um, I never thought I'd say this, but my TikTok is at Aaron McKey. Um, and if I did a live stream of the class that's gonna walk in here of just me in the back corner, um, I think that would be the next thing.

But I'm getting texts and I'm ignoring 'em. But I started a TikTok at my wife's request. I. And I've, I've made seven videos in my life. Like I have no idea What,

I'm doing. I have no strategy. Um, but I said, if I'm gonna do a podcast, then I might as well do a TikTok and some of this other stuff. And so I made one with my students' phones yesterday in class, and [00:34:00] it's been about 22 hours, 23 hours since I posted that.

The last that I saw, a student texted me that it has 400,000 plus views on TikTok in less than a day. So, I don't know. Yeah, I, I don't know why, but the, the impetus was we put all of our phones face up and let notifications come through, and then we took a time lapse video of What, one classroom worth of notifications looks like today.

then we put prominent apps on a marker board, and then everybody tallied up, like, how many Snapchat notifications did you have? How many text messages? Life 360, et cetera. And just posted that to TikTok, um, and said, here's what?

my students' phones look like for one class period. And I don't know why, but apparently that's quite the popular thing on TikTok.

Amazing ball. I'm gonna link to that video in [00:35:00] the, in the show notes. So everybody check that out@visionforlearning.com and we can see if it broke the million. Mark in, uh, in just a little bit. So Aaron, thanks so much. Appreciate you being here and thanks for your time and, uh, this has been awesome chatting with you today.

Yes, thank you, Jethro. And hey, I gotta give you credit 'cause you're a big source of inspiration for me and gave me a pep talk just a week ago about some things that I should have been doing a long time ago. So, having a podcast in both of my classes and some of this stuff, I never would've done it without you, and I have no idea.

What's gonna come of it, but it's been an adventure and I've learned a ton so far. So credit to you, Jethro, and thanks for having me on.

Hey, my pleasure. Thank you.